Inverting the Web 

@freakazoid Shifting ground (and jumping back up this stack -- we've sorted the URL/URI bit):

What you suggest that's interesting to me is the notion of _self-description_ or _self-identity_ as an inherent document characteristic.

(Where a "document" is any fixed bag'o'bits: text, audio, image, video, data, code, binary, etc.)

Not metadata (name, path, URI).

*Maybe* a hash, though that's fragile.

What is _constant_ across formats?

@freakazoid So, for example:

I find a scanned-in book at the Internet Archive, I re-type the document myself (probably with typos) to create a Markdown source, and then generate PDF, ePub, and HTML formats.

What's the constant across these?

How could I, preferably programmatically, identify these as being the same, or at least, highly-related, documents?

MD5 / SHA-512 checksums will identify _files_, but not _relations between them_.

Can those relations be internalised intrinsically?

@freakazoid Or do you always have to maintain some external correspondence index which tells you that SOURCE.PDF was the basis for RETYPED.MD which then generated RETYPED.MD.ePub and RETYPED.MD.html, etc.

Something that will work across printed, re-typed, error/noise, whitespace variants. Maybe translations or worse.

Word vectors? A Makefile audit? Merkel trees, somehow?

@dredmorbius We have real world solutions for these problems in the form of notaries, court clerks, etc. I.e. (registered) witnesses. Trusted third parties, but they don't have to be a single party.

@dredmorbius In the RDF world I guess one doesn't sign the individual triple but the entire graph.

And it might make more sense to call these 4-tuples, because it's really "this person says that this object is related in this way to this other object".

@freakazoid So for 4-tuple:

1. Verifier
2. Object1.
3. Obejct2.
4. Obect1-Object-2 relation

"Signed" means that the whole statement is then cryptographically signed, making it an authenticatable statement?

@freakazoid And, so:

Back to search and Web:

- The actual URL and path matter to the browser.

- They may matter to me. Some RoboSpam site ripping off my blog posts _might_ leave the content unchanged, but they're still scamming web traffic, ads revenue, or reputation, based on false pretences. I want to read my content from my blog, not SpamSite, even if text and hashes match.

@dredmorbius @freakazoid
Ad revenue is basically a way to use the web's (accidental) dynamicism as a monetization strategy. If monetization were based on permission to access, you'd save on hosting costs if you *only* gave permission & whoever happened to be around did the hosting (like serving password-protected items off bittorrent and selling the passwords).

@enkiv2 @dredmorbius Of course, now instead of pirating big files people will just pirate the passwords ;-)

An ISP startup I worked for back in '96 (InterNex, later acquired by Concentric which renamed itself to XO Communications using one of Internex's domains for customers) tried to make something like this. It was essentially DRM for arbitrary content that used a .exe wrapper that contacted a license server. I don't think they ever managed to even bring it to makret.

@freakazoid @enkiv2 @dredmorbius
Right, I'm imagining a world without piracy. (It turns out that if it's easier to pay, the first world will generally just pay, and piracy becomes limited to folks who wouldn't pay anyway.) What I'm describing is xanadu 'transcopyright' though -- but transcopyright in xusp, xsp, oxu, & xuc is based on one time pads for subdivision reasons so it doesn't save you any bytes.

@enkiv2 @dredmorbius If it's easy to pay people will pay, but then there's also a strong encouragement to put stuff that would otherwise have been free behind paywalls, like we see in app stores. I don't think "no piracy" is the goal we should be looking for. It's maximum value for humanity from creativity.

@enkiv2 @dredmorbius Or to put it another way my goal is not to make sure that people pay to consume content but to make it so that people can make awesome stuff. A fixed payment per person or per use is about the crudest way I can think of to accomplish that. If anything it dramatically limits the utility of creativity, because even though it's nearly costless for additional people to benefit from it, unless they can or will pay the fixed price, they get nothing.

@enkiv2 @dredmorbius Likewise, there's a barrier to paying *more*. Especially since payment happens up front, before the payer has any idea what utility they will derive from the content. Far better to pay after the fact on a sliding scale. Sure, some will exploit that, and I think our aversion for that is what makes us accept such a shitty solution to begin with. But I think creators would get far more with such a model, especially since it helps eliminate middlemen

@freakazoid @enkiv2 @dredmorbius elementary OS is exploring good things this way in their AppCenter!

They heavily encourage, but do not require, payment & they provide a button for people to pay whenever they want.

@alcinnz
@freakazoid @enkiv2 @dredmorbius interesting thread. If resources had a 'Suggested price' and consumption means 'Intention to pay' then afterwards payment could be below price w. e.g. max. 50% off (disappointed), on par or above price (cool stuff). Average payment then indicates 'Quality of resource': "N people payed X price". Consistently underpaying effects Reputation, risks losing access to resources.

@alcinnz @freakazoid @enkiv2 @dredmorbius
The minimum price, set as a percentage of suggested price, ensures creators at least earn something. The percentage could start low and dynamically increase (or decrease further) based on the value assigned by the consumers through their payment.

@humanetech @alcinnz @enkiv2 @dredmorbius I think the way to make sure creators earn something is to have something like a UBI, or otherwise make it so that one doesn't have to earn anything to live a dignified, healthy, happy, productive life. I think the only minimum price that makes sense is zero, because a) that's the cost of an additional copy, and b) there are a huge number of people who will benefit from a work who can't pay.

@humanetech @alcinnz @enkiv2 @dredmorbius Remember, the value to humanity of a creative work comes from its consumption. The value to any given individual is the difference between the value to them of consuming the work and the value of what they have to pay for it. The reason we enable creators to capture some of the value they produce is to incentivize them to create more. But we want them to create works with the most value to others.

@freakazoid @humanetech @alcinnz @enkiv2 @dredmorbius

A substantial part of our creative output is made with the express purpose of influencing others.

And, like this thread, not paid for by the reader.

If I may parafrase you:
The value to any given individual then is the difference between the value to them of getting others to consume the work and the value of what they have to pay for it.
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@Jens @humanetech @dredmorbius @enkiv2 @alcinnz That's a really good point. I hadn't really been thinking about the value to the creator themselves of having others use their work. It especially gives an interesting perspective on Hollywood and the media since they have a lot of influence on our culture and politics directly through the works they produce.

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