@kick @enkiv2 @dredmorbius @freakazoid
It's more a matter of: the social problem cannot be fixed by a technical change, so we should employ a social change instead. No matter what we do on a technical level, we can't really move the needle on this.

@enkiv2 @kick @dredmorbius @freakazoid
Changing norms is harder than employing technical systems because power is not as lopsided. To change norms, you need buy-in from most participants; to change tech, you just need to be part of the small privileged group who controls commit access. This is why it's so important, though. Norms aren't set in stone but they'll only change if you can actually convince people that changing their habits is a good idea!

@enkiv2 @kick @dredmorbius @freakazoid
Most people online have had bad experiences with people weaponizing out-of-context information -- that's why technical solutions like RTBF exist. RTBF not actually working, while simultaneously pushing power into the hands of centralized corporate services, is obvious to most people too. Saying "it's impolite to dogpile on somebody without checking whether or not you've been misled first" is way less extreme.

@enkiv2 @kick @dredmorbius @freakazoid
Re: the speed at which norms can change, consider content warnings. They went from something that only a handful of folks with PhDs trying to work out experimental ways to avoid meltdowns in extreme circumstances having even heard of them to something that everybody is aware of & only jerks believe are never justified in a matter of ten years. We still argue about when they're justified but there isn't a serious contingent against using them at all.

@enkiv2 @kick @dredmorbius I'm not arguing for RTBF. I'm arguing for not making it impossible to unpublish content.

CWs are nowhere near universal and the fact that they're not proves my point quite nicely.

@enkiv2 @kick @dredmorbius There's also the fact that people deliberately exploit immutable systems to publish stuff that's damaging. For example, there's kiddie porn in the Bitcoin blockchain.

@freakazoid @enkiv2 @kick @dredmorbius
This is a fair point, though I wouldn't pick CP as a good example of infohazard. Depending on one's model, CP is contraband either because a market for it incentivizes abuse or because exposure to it incentivizes abuse. Under the former model, having it on the blockchain lowers abuse potential. Obviously a complex & emotionally charged topic (even more so than "if you burn a million dollars does the value of a dollar bill go up or down")

@enkiv2 @freakazoid @kick @dredmorbius
The risk profile of putting contraband or blackmail material on a blockchain is basically the same as the risk profile of keeping a copy on paper in a safety deposit box & periodically mailing out photocopies -- except that this latter *only* works for people with an incentive to store info indefinitely. In other words, it puts the power to select what gets remembered in the hands of whoever thinks they will want to distribute it in the far future.

@enkiv2 @freakazoid @kick @dredmorbius
Really, norm-based solutions can't work unless practically everything is immutable either. If everything is immutable then context can be retrieved in the future even if nobody thought to preserve it at the time. This functionally defangs blackmail because lies-by-omission are not backed up by layers of friction between everybody & whatever information was omitted.

@enkiv2 @kick @dredmorbius I don't see how things' not being unpublishable could defang blackmail. Blackmail will just apply to information that hasn't been published in the first place.

This goes beyond mere disagreement; this is a system I would kill to stop.


@enkiv2 @kick @dredmorbius This is the argument 4channers make against outlawing revenge porn. "Women just need to learn to stop allowing boyfriends to photograph them naked, or accept that naked pictures of them are going to be on the Internet."

No. We live in a society. You publish shit that hurts someone else, you get hurt yourself.

@freakazoid @enkiv2 @dredmorbius Why is it always 4chan users who get blamed for bad culture on the internet? It's literally the queerest place on the entire network, yet without exception it gets blamed for the things that redditors are primarily responsible for.
@freakazoid @dredmorbius @enkiv2 *No. We live in a society. You publish shit that hurts someone else, you get hurt yourself.*

This is a slippery and stupid slope, and it justifies what's currently happening to people like Snowden, Manning and Assange, despite them not doing anything that was actually morally wrong. I'd accept a claim like this with reduced scope, but as it stands that's way too wide.

@kick @enkiv2 @dredmorbius "sometimes people get punished for things we don't think they should be punished for" is not an argument in favor of not having any limits at all, so I'm not super interested in debating it.

@kick @enkiv2 @dredmorbius Super uninterested in a 4chan vs Reddit debate. I couldn't care less about 4chan getting blamed for terrible shit they aren't actually responsible for given all the terrible shit they (or rather the shitheads they allowed to take over) were responsible for.

@kick @enkiv2 @dredmorbius Actually I'm being too generous. The folks there were plenty comfortable with racist, homophobic, and transphobic language from the very beginning. If Moot had deliberately set out to build a Nazi indoctrination camp, I have no idea what he would have done differently.

@freakazoid @enkiv2 @dredmorbius

You're being kind of ridiculous, which is kind of frustrating to see from someone who otherwise has been mostly at least together, view-wise.

There's a board dedicated to queer people (three of them if you include boards dedicated to queer anime/manga/etc), 90% of boards have zero political discussion (I'm not joking about this, some boards even ban it if I recall correctly), and Moot wasn't "comfortable" with any of that stuff; he's not a Nazi nor Nazi sympathizer, hell, he works at Google now.

He (rightfully) believed that spaces where people can interact without identifying themselves are important, which is the correct view to have.

@freakazoid @enkiv2 @kick @dredmorbius
I'm not opposed to ramification for bad behavior. I'm trying to figure out how to encourage punishment to be equitable. Part of that is preventing motivated misrepresentation (and power asymmetry in misrepresentation). Right now would-be blackmailers choose what gets to become history, so they can spin anything as a sin.

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